Batman 3: Johnny Depp Definitely The Riddler, But Probably Not
The Batman 3 casting rumours have so far been numerous and vague, but at least one thing’s for certain – Johnny Depp will definitely play The Riddler.
That’s a stone cold fact. You heard it here first. Why are we so sure that Johnny Depp will play The Riddler in Batman 3? Because Johnny Depp recently briefly mumbled something desperately ambiguous about it possibly being quite fun to maybe play The Riddler during a local radio interview with his band.
See? That’s means Johnny Depp is definitely going to be The Riddler in Batman 3, which is why we’ve already started to manufacture a set of Johnny Depp Batman 3 Riddler action figures. OK, admittedly we just got a load of unsold Pirates Of The Caribbean action figures and Tippexed question marks onto their backs but – face it – that’s probably what he’ll be like in the film anyway.
We know this is a bit premature, but we’re absolutely confident that Batman 3 is going to be the best film ever made. Seriously, ever.
Look at how Dark Knight ended, with Batman living in fear as a supposed criminal vigilante. Batman 3 is going to have the same feeling of doomy paranoia and creeping dread, but it’ll also have Cher titting around in a rubber doily too. There’s something for everyone there, provided that you’re a manic depressive comicbook fan or a stereotypical homosexual.
But what if you want more from The Dark Knight’s sequel than a fed-up Batman and a terrifyingly expressionless pensionable Catwoman who keeps getting her old lady minge out? What if, for instance, you want to see The Riddler in Batman 3?
Well, frankly, if that’s the case you’re an idiot. The Riddler is rubbish. He’s basically The Joker but with a green hat and a thing for Sudoku. He’s Henry Kelly from Going For Gold with a bee in his bonnet. He’s rubbish. Don’t argue, we’re right. He’s rubbish.
But none of that fierce logic is washing with Christopher Nolan. It’s long been rumoured that he’d like to cast Johnny Depp as The Riddler in Batman 3. So far Johnny Depp has kept quiet over the reports, but during a local radio interview recently, he decided to share his thoughts on the matter:
Host: Hey Johnny, a listener called in earlier said you have to ask about the rumors on the internet of you doing the Riddler.
Depp: Oh yeah, I heard about that. Not that I know of.
Host: You’d be a good choice.
Depp: It seems like it’d be a fun gig for a while, yeah.
“It seems like it’d be a fun gig for a while, yeah.” If that’s not official confirmation of the casting, we don’t know what is. But you know what this means?
It’s obvious. Cher as Catwoman and Sweeney Todd’s Johnny Depp as The Riddler? Batman 3 is going to be a musical!
That’s excellent news, and we’d like to take this opportunity to offer Christopher Nolan our specially-composed pieces I’m Just A Lonely Millionaire With A Creepy Bat Fixation, Butla Rapp and Don’t Kiss Me Catwoman (You Have A Moustache Like My Gran). Don’t be stealing our ideas, Nolan.
Get Your Dark Knight and Batman Movie Merchandise at SuperheroStuff.com
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LOL.
stuart, you’re living in cloud nine
who do you thinl will play robin
Robin is gay – trust me.
Superman
The old Robin is, but the cartoon one is pretty cool.
Johny Dept is not going to be riddler! Mr.Reece from the Dark Night is going to be riddler in the next movie. Mr.Reece and mysteries sound alike! You got the whole thing wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Riddlers name is Edward Nigma, You got the whole thing wrong!!!!!!!!
And i highly doubt robin will feature in the next movie, Batman’s on the run and introducing a small boy into that would be a bit silly. And although it is a long shot, The small boy in the first film was given one of batmans gadgets, perhaps a hint that that very same boy grows up to be robin?
execpt for the boy he gave it too being Gordon’s son.
I LOVE the Riddler .<
I have to disagree with you there Jon. The boy that was given teh gadget, well his mother and father were shouting and screaming which is the total opposite of Robin’s childhood family that was so giddy and oh one other thing…DID IT SEEM LIKE THEY WERE IN THE CIRCUS TO YOU! IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NARROWS I DONT THINK SO
The little boy ran away, went to the circus…bla bla bla
And with the little gadget…
Well, yeah the riddler is going to have to be johnny, but the little boy, was given the gadget and your saying his parents were perfect and in the circus, but, if you remember who was it that killed batman’s Parents, hm, and also Harvey dent got his over exaggerated scare from coffee, and that changed, so things can change slightly!!!
Also, the person in the very fist movies to kill batmans parents by the way, was the joker!!, then later changed to joe chill!! im pretty sure!!!
I have a feeling they are going to screw up this movie. If they bring cat woman and Robin out in this one, I am done. You can do the joker and the riddler and keep with the more realistic feel the first movie had. With the joker it worked. If you pop in some gay side kick and an over acting woman, you will just screw the whole thing up. Johnny Depp could play the role of the riddler and pull it off….. I think. Maybe they should just keep it at two. I can see this being Terminator 3 rise of the machines all over again.
God i hope they don’t get depp to play the riddeler. He would so sux and make the whole movie bad. Plus if they get cher i am done, this combo just won’t work. Maybe they should bring in Harley! That would be kick ass. But using Johnny, it would be like willie wanka in a green suit with more of a Jack sparrow sweny todd personality mixed with a bit of Edward siccorhands dim wittedness. Not a good combo but now that i say that it does seem as though his career path has been leading him to this point! Lol. And what he said really wasn’t comformation, he was no doubt high and whar have you.
Chow Bellas!
No wai Jonny is the perfect Phsyco killer and an allover great actor
Mr. Reece as the Riddler come on Johnny Depp is the best person to play the role hands down and to the people that are talking about the boy who batman gave the gadget too. He is not going to be the Robin i agree with King Robin was born and raised in the Circus life he wasnt in the bad section of gotham when he was little he was in the circus his entire life.
I can understand not being able picture Robin in the next film, because he may only work in the comics. However, I don’t understand why some people can’t picture Catwoman. If Nolan can bring in the Joker and Two-Face then he can surely bring in Catwoman. The Joker is probably one of the most unrealistic villains in the comics. The man who fall in pit of acid and survives is pure comic book escapism. If Nolan were to bring in Catwoman it would obviously would be based on her very first appearances in 1940 comics. Since her original incarnation is the most realistic
Are you really kidding me with what you said as the joker being the most unrealtistic character Jim. Look at catwomen she is a person who is in love with cats and somehow just by magic or vodoo or something she gets 9 lifes like a cat does. At least in the jokers case the falling into a acid pit could have made him crazy and want to kill the people that did that too him watch the (3rd) batman with jack nicholson as the joker.
I totally agree. All hail Joker. even if he is dead. he completed the role. and made it more then just a movie
i agree totally jordan
“Look at catwomen she is a person who is in love with cats and somehow just by magic or vodoo or something she gets 9 lifes like a cat does.”
That is her origin in Batman Returns; that is not her origin in the comics. In the comics she has a more realistic origin like Batman. She was an orphan raised on the streets and as a result turns to a life of crime. I’m sorry but the Joker is not realistic; his motives are realistic, but his background and clown gadgets are not.
ok but we are talking about the movies not the comic book look at any book you read if you read a book not a comic Harry Potter 4 for example that movie was totally different from the book so if catwomen is raised on the streets as a orphan then how does she get her 9 lives and how is that not stupid
I think angelina jolie would be the perfect catwomen.
Riddle me this. I have to say that this article is a load of bullshit. I hate people who don’t respect the riddler. He is nothing like the joker. Maybe if you read a comic book in your life you would understand. Fucking dumbass!
i hate the idea of catwoman, she has been used in movies to many times. i think the ridler will make batman more interesting and the story will be able to be continued in batman 4 and mabye even 5
“i hate the idea of catwoman, she has been used in movies to many times.”
So has the Joker, but they brought him back for The Dark Knight. The Riddler has also been done as well.
I think Catwoman would be great addition to franchise and I do believe that Nolan would at least consider the idea of bringing her into his Batman universe. I believe Catwoman would an easy character to bring into the films, because she is one the most realistic. She is the most realistic in the 1940 comics, where she didn’t wear a skin tight or purple costume. She just wears fancy clothes and establishes herself as a high class criminal. If Nolan were to bring her into the franchise it would my best bet that he would base his interpretation on her first appearance in the comics.
“She is the most realistic in the 1940 comics” you said it your self she is realistic in the comic books not in the movies do you think she was realistic in batman returns so other characters are realistic then twoface because he doesnt have any powers just because they dont have powers doesnt make it more or less realistic
I really think Jim Carry should play as the riddler. As he did in the earlier films.
Jim carry was the a bad riddler but i am putting him up against the only true real Riddler Frank Gorshin
Ok everyone listen up! Christopher Nolan always has a twist. No one will every get it right to what is gonna happen. It gets annoying when people say they know whats gonna happen. Christopher Nolan told a reporter he isn’t even thinking about doing another movie. Their may be no more Batman. I would hate that! I think the whole world would be pissed off! The joker should be brought back. Heath would have wanted that. They should hold off on The Penguin, The Cat woman, and The Riddler. They still have so much things they could do with Two Faced. And another thing, I only saw The Dark Knight first and I loved it. Then I saw Batman Begins and it was just horrible! I wonder what will happen to The Wayne’s mansion. Will that be built? Well thats all I have. I hope they come out with the next Batman soon because I will be the first to run into the Theater. I CAN’T WAIT!
Well jack, two face died in Dark Knight so there is nothing more they can do with that. i agree that no one wants Batman to end though.
well scott… that was never proven
Why is everyone so convinced that the next movie will even have the riddler.. or robin? don’t forget theres still mr. freeze, bain, poison ivy, scarecrow can still return, penguin and others. so.., think about that.
It doesn’t matter what character or characters they put in Batman 3 they will not be able to live up to the performance of Ledger’s Joker. Ledger played the role so well that it is too tough of an act to follow in such a film. The next Batman film is almost guaranteed to fall short. The writers know that, and are starting to walk away. With all of the rediculous talk of adding Robin, Cher as Catwoman, and Mr. Freeze to the next movie, maybe they should. The writers are saying that if they do make a part three it may not be until 2012 or 2013. Read this,
http://movies.ign.com/articles/995/995197p1.html
I believe the talks of Cher being Catwoman and bringing back Robin are just rumors. Nothing has been confirmed just yet they are just rumors. There is good chance that Nolan will return, but there is also good chance that he won’t return. It’s all up in the air right now and I think it is a bit too early to rush to conclusions.
cher is not going to be catwomen and there is going to be no robin and Johhny Depp will be the riddler he has CONFIRMED that
“They still have so much things they could do with Two Faced.”
But didn’t Christopher Nolan confirm that Two-Face died at the end of the movie.
There is one way you could make Robin work.
First, don’t make him a sidekick. Or even living with Batman. Make him just another copycat vigilante working in the city who Batman doesn’t know but maybe has met his real persona.
Second, make him have deep personal problems, maybe he was an abused child or watched his fiancee being murdered or some such.
Third, instead of being a circus performer, make him a high school gymnast who just got back from a tour in Afghanistan a member of Marine Force Reconaissance.
That is how you make a more realistic Robin. You heardit from me first. Don’t bite my idea. I want my check!
Robin, a Force Recon Marine? I don’t think you have to worry about anyone biting that idea.
First robin is not a copycat viglante he is BATMAN SIDEKICK and thats it
Second he already has deep personal problems like batman he watched his parents get murdered
Third he and his family are cirus performers and thats how they died and making him be a gay high school gymist or a marine from afghanistan is supposed to make him more realistic
Fourth your a idiot
There wont be a robin! Johnny Depp is only “supposidly” the Riddler. Maggie Gyllenhaal and Aaron Eckhart both signed a two year deal with the Batman movies, so I expect to see a flashback of Rachel Dawes in Batman 3 and possibly a “I’m not finished”-type beginning with Two-Face. Cher as Catwoman is redic!!!!! 62 year old Catwoman!?!?!? Get outta here!!!
Hopefully the pick a guy with a nice ass to play the role of Robin. Robin is known for his nice ass – trust me.
Batman + Robin = Hot!!!
Superman
ROBIN IS NOT GOING TO BE IN THE MOVIE
This what I think is going to happen. You know how scarecrow was in the beginning and somewhat in the end. thats what i think they would do with riddler and catwoman. Because they didn’t start out bad just yet. They had jobs riddler worked at wayne enterprises and catwoman I don’t remember. well we know that morgan freemans character resigned right. That means the riddler will be in charge of wayne enterprises. the riddler will in it but not bad yet not until the end of the third. This is why like what jack mcpartin said they still have joker to do because he is batmans arch nemesis. other than that this my list of actors that should be villians.
the riddler=Johnney Depp
catwoman=Anjelina Jolie
the penguin=Philip Seymour Hoffman
harley quin= Megan Foxx
poison ivy=Tilda Swinton
mr.freeze=Hugo Weaving
bain=Kane
the joker=Timithy Olyphant or Andy Serkis
I believe Lucius Fox will probably be back as the man in charge of Wayne Enterprises. He said he would not work there as long as the cellphone sonar machine was still there so at the end, when he entered his name it destroyed the machine. Dont count on Edward Nigma running the show there, but if he is in the 3rd movie he will possibly be a leading scientist again he makes a dangerous machine that gets turned down.
Can anyone see jake galenhael or shia lebouf or maybe elijah wood being robin.
if no one agrees with hugo weaving being mr. freeze. what about tobin bell the old man that plays jigsaw in the saw movies.
Okay batman fans obviously mr.freeze is an unrealistic character right. well did anyone like ironman? just curious because ironman man is somewhat like mr.freeze because of the armour. If mr. freeze is going to be in any batman movie he should be kind of like similiar to ironman.
Nolen has already made it clear he isnt using the more fictional characters like freeze, poison ivy and penguin. So, with that said, riddler and catwoman are the best choices as of now. Nolen has also been quoted to say that he doesnt necessarily think the idea of robin would be good for the series. I tend to agree, robin was worthless and I hope they dont add him to “Nolen’s Trilogy”. I agree with T Man sayin that Fox is still workin at Wayne Inc. and if Edward Nigma is added to the third movie then I think that he will take over Applied Science Department because Fox got a higher job at the end of Batman Begins (Batman 1 of the series). Riddler is a very high possibility in my opinion, now…just who would be the best to hire for the character????
The “Batman” franchise is over.
Here’s why:
1. There was always going to be a sequel to “Batman Begins.”
It’s practically in the title. It’s called “Batman BEGINS.” That just implies that there will be a continuation beyond that. There’s also the ending. Unlike “The Dark Knight,” which leaves possibility, and a controversial resolution, “Batman Begins” handed us the sequel on a platter. And that wasn’t the only clue. James Gordon wasn’t the commissioner yet. That HAD to happen before the series could end. It happened. Another is that the Joker wasn’t in it. Done and done.
2. They’ll never top “The Dark Knight.”
Heath Ledger’s performance won him an Academy Award. The movie has made a billion dollars. Batman was pushed to his breaking point. How much higher could they raise the stakes? No 3-part movie series ever ends on the highest note, and all involved know this. Sure, Warner Brothers would love another billion-dollar-grossing film, even if it did suck, but they’re giving Christopher Nolan all the leeway because they know the movie doesn’t work without him.
3. Rachel Dawes is dead.
This is no ordinary love interest. She was Bruce Wayne’s oldest friend, and cannot be replaced. This series isn’t episodic. It’s one continuing story, and her loss won’t be easy to get past. Nor do we want to see Bruce Wayne spend the whole third movie brooding over it.
4. Heath Ledger is dead.
One of the few things in “The Dark Knight” that did point to a sequel is the Joker’s line: “We could do this forever.” The Joker is Batman’s eternal nemesis. They are yin and yang. With the possibility of his return gone, thus went the possibility of a third film. They obviously won’t replace him, so they’d be left finding another villain to fill the void and serve only as a plot device. That brings us to the next reason…
5. They’ve used up all worthy, while still believable villains.
There couldn’t be a Batman franchise without the Joker. Done. Christopher Nolan will not use any supernatural, or super-powered villains. Done. This franchise is about making Batman believable. He’s cut out all the campy stuff. Batman has been around for 70 years, and he’s got plenty of villains, but how many would justify another movie? Catwoman? Maybe a cameo like the Scarecrow has in “The Dark Knight,” but a whole movie? No way. The Riddler? The Penguin? All of Batman’s villains are psycho, and that has been done to perfection. They would end up coming off just like the Joker. And any other villains would be too obscure. Nolan is not making Batman movies for comic fanboys, but for moviegoers, and they are not going to care about a Batman movie involving Bane, or Deadshot, or Harley Quinn. I loved Ra’s al Guhl, but even he was reaching. His daughter Talia is being kicked around by speculators online, but I just can’t see it due to the love interest part. Who else is there realistically?
Christopher Nolan will choose quality over quantity, and that will be it. Warner Brothers will eventually (and I mean years down the road) make another Batman film, especially if Marvel Studios keeps up the recent success of films like “Iron Man.” The franchise is just too big a money maker, but it won’t be on par with what we’re seeing from Nolan. I’d love for him to make a liar of me, but I just don’t see it.
What would I do?
I think Nolan would be right to end things where he has. I would give it 5 or 10 years to become legendary, and build anticipation and mystery. Then I would give it to a new production team (unless Nolan and Co. wanted back in) and make “The Dark Knight Returns,” based loosely on Frank Miller(Sin City, 300)’s story of same name, which is set after a 10 year Batman absence. Everyone could be recast (including the Joker) by that time, and fans would be so rabid for the film that commercial success would be all but guaranteed. But it won’t happen.
The second installment in Nolan’s trilogy (notice how i say TRILOGY) was a huge hit. Yes when Heath died it sort of screwed it up for the Joker, but to anybody who has read a batman comic book you would know that the Riddler is nothing like the Joker. the Joker had no name, no other alias, no prints, no record, no nothing. The Riddler on the other hand is Edward Nigma, works for Bruce Wayne, and is more fallible when it comes to being defeated by the Bat. Therefore if the Riddler was going to be used, there would need to be another villian, and is much as i hate to say it, Catwoman would fill the role.
I personally hate the Catwoman, but the love interest in Batman’s life has to be renewed, and she would accomplish this. Plus, having Batman deal with the Riddler, then Catwoman, then the fact that he’s an outcast vigilante would make an incredible film. Who know’s maybe the reason Nolan made batman an outcast in the end of The Dark Night was so that one day, he would find himself desperate for help because of his overwhelming circumstances and possibly that is where we could see the part of Robin coming into play. i’m not sure how this would happen but it is a possibility. But one thing is for sure…. The Riddler remake will have to be dark, disturbing, and flat out scary for him to beat out the Joker which is already almost impossible, yet i’d like to see Nolan try.
Oh and by the way Christopher Bale, Maggie G, and Nolan all signed for three movies so that is why there has to be a final installment. It might take awhile to get to theaters but it WILL get there, and when it does i think all of us Batman fans will be pleased cause Nolan has done a great job so far, even though Heath completely dominated the The Dark Night, single handedly making it a hit. Let’s hope another great actor gets the part of Riddler, so as to even have a hope or a prayer comparing with Ledger.
Yes, I did notice you said “trilogy.” And since YOU said it, it MUST be true.
The “love interest” does not need to be renewed. Rachel Dawes is the only woman that Bruce cares about. They are not going to bring in some flavor of the month like Catwoman to replace her when she was so intimately woven into the fabric of the first two films.
Stop helping. I’m serious.
Its called BATMAN BEGINS becauses they are making a JUSTIC LEAGUE OF AMERICA WITH BATMAN IN IT SO THEY ARE TRYING TO STAY WITH THE SAME BATMAN
ok yea the last batman movie was good but there is no way in hell it would have sold that much if Heath Ledger didnt die so i do think they can and will top it
so what she is dead who cares that has nothing to do with the story line the only reason i can think of them putting her in the movie was to be harvey dents girlfriend in the second film
There is still a possiblity that they will cast his role and continue with the joker just because heath legder is dead doesnt mean the character is dead which if you noticed they didnt kill of his character
it is not about non realistic characters its about the comic Mr Freeze, Bane, Poision Ivy, Catwomen they are not realistic characters but they still put them in the movies and i can GUARANTEE that if the Joker returns then Harley Quinn will be in the next movie
Sorry Shoes but i completely disagree.
1. There didn’t necesarily have to be a sequal to Begins. Nolan Originally set out to rewrite Batman’s origin and that was it. After the huge success of Begins it was obvious that there would be a sequal because theres so much money in it, not because he left it open for a sequal.
And whos to say DK wasn’t left open? Batmans on the run from the law, Two Face may or may not be dead, and Someone else knows Batmans true identity (Mr E).
2. I personally felt DK wasn’t as good as the first film. Don’t get me wrong it was brilliant, but so was Begins. Dark Knight Won’t be that hard to top by Nolan of that i have no doubt.
3. Really more of a casting thing than anything else. Although i personally am glad to see her out the way. Batman is one of the few Super Heroes who never really needed a love interest yet they put one in every single film for some reason? Besides the actress playing her in DK was terrible. The character was completely different to the Person she was in Begins. Her Death hopefully means we won’t have to see a love interest get in the way in the next one. And LoL “Nor do we want to see Bruce Wayne spend the whole third movie brooding” it’s Batman xD
4. Yes it’s Tragic, Watch “A Knight’s Tale” it’s my personal favourite Heath film other than Dark Knight. But when it comes to making movies it doesn’t really matter. They can show a shadowed joker played by someone else in Arkham for 30 seconds in the next film to show where he is. The Joker may be The Batmans Nemesis, but there are stronger foes, and smarter. The series doesn’t necesarilly have to begin and end with him.
5. HAH look up on Wikipedia all the Batman villains, there are plenty that will quite comfortably fit in Nolans world. The Riddler being the main example and Nolan could probably do it to anyone of them anyway. Look at Two-Face, One of the wackiest villains in The Batman Universe (wears half normal half messed up suites, bases all decisions on the flip of a coin, his face was half burned by acid turning him insane) and Now he’s a believable character…almost.
Perhaps Nolan Won’t make the next film but this Arc is far from over, Christian Bale is signed on for atleast one more, (as much of a short tempered ass hole he is he’s played batman better than anyone else thus far) and the rest of the cast have said they’d be glad to reprise their roles.
I Honestly hope We’ll be seeing another batman Movie soon, as Nolans Batmans, the new Wolverine and iron man are the only Comic Book movies i as a fan have really enjoyed so far :/
You are a fan and you enjoyed Wolverine? How? That movie was terrible!
Franchise isnt over! Nolen will do another and i’ll put money on it being riddler as the villian. Joker wont be in it at all, no recast, no thought about it. Of course all of Batman villians are crazy, thats what makes them the villian in evey Batman comic. But I agree with your point about Rachel, i cant see that playin into the next movie at all, although Maggie Gyllenhaal signed a two year deal with Nolen & the Batman franchise along with Aaron Eckhart. So, I see Two-face making a camio such as what Scarecrow had done in The Dark Knight, I just dont see how Rachel could be in the next movie. UNLESS! Rachel somehow survived the bomb, or Joker gave a false address and never intended on blowing up Dawes….she could come back as….catwoman…because Batman and catwoman had somewhat an attraction. So, maybe… Just literally throwing that one out there to ponder…
I’m sorry, but I think that you’re wrong on many accounts. I think your reasoning is oversimplified. This may be Nolan’s last Batman film but this is not the end of the Batman franchise. Furthermore, there is still a good chance that Nolan will return for another. Both ways I don’t believe the franchise is over and here is my reasoning.
1. There was always going to be a sequel to “Batman Begins
Actually Nolan said during the filming of Begins that he wasn’t thinking about sequels. He even says that he was considering not returning; believing that he should quite while he is ahead. Also according to Jonathan Nolan it took some convincing on Goyer part to convince Chris to do another film.
2. They’ll never top “The Dark Knight.”
It’s difficult but not impossible. Christopher Nolan is a great writer and Batman is a never-ending story. There is plenty of story to tell; especially now that Batman is a fugitive and completely on his own. It is likely that they will follow the Dark Victory storyline in which Batman is struggling with loneliness and isolation.
3. Rachel Dawes is dead
Just because Rachel is dead doesn’t mean that he can’t move on. Batman/Bruce Wayne had many (tragic) love interests in the comics so giving him a new love interest wouldn’t be that hard. However, I highly doubt that they would make the new love interest a Rachel Dawes duplicate.
4. Heath Ledger is dead.
Heath did an incredible job as the Joker, but there are plenty of other villains for Batman to face. Batman has a rogues gallery for a reason. Each villain gives Batman a different challenge and if writers can’t take advantage his mythology then what is the point of having different villains.
5. They’ve used up all worthy, while still believable villains.
To be honest the Joker is not that realistic. Christopher Nolan, Brian Azzello, and at times Ed Brubaker have given realistic interpretations of the Joker, but Joker has been quite far fetch in the history of the comics. Furthermore, there are plenty of other realistic villains to choose from the comics. Catwoman would be a good addiction and I don’t see why it is impossible to have her in the entire movie. She one of the most iconic and recognizable characters in the DC universe; she even has her own comics. The Riddler and the penguin would also be good additions, but the riddler is more likely since Nolan seems disinterested in the penguin. Also the riddler and the penguin are not like the Joker. The Riddler is psychotic but he is a smooth talking criminal and the penguin is an upper class gangster neither of them is like the Joker.
If Christopher Nolan can’t live up expectation of the next film then he should stop here, but if he can then he should go through with a third installment. Just because a film is challenging doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done. If doing a movie or any project was all easy then it wouldn’t be as interesting.
This is a pretty spirited little debate. I like it.
Okay, round two.
First, on the franchise, if Christopher Nolan leaves, that IS the end of this Franchise. Dead man walking. Nolan has it in a lock. It is his. Sure, WB will eventually find someone else to make the next Batman movie, but it will either be stand alone, or the start of a new franchise under some new director. And we all know what happened when Joel Shoemacher took over after Tim Burton. We can debate the meaning of the word franchise all day. If Nolan bails, its over.
Second, I would not put much stock in all the 2 and 3 film contract talk. Nothing in Hollywood is set in stone, especially contracts. That could mean a million things. Rachel and Harvey could show up in a flashback for 10 seconds and fulfill a contract. And as for Christian Bale, other than Nolan, he is holding all the cards. If he doesn’t like the next script, or they change directors, or any of a million other reasons, he can walk. I’m sure he can afford it. And if they do all agree to do another Batman film without Nolan as the director, as I’ve already stated, the franchise is still done.
Bale also said, “If Robin crops up in one of the new Batman films, I’ll be chaining myself up somewhere and refusing to go to work.” So forget Robin. Forget Robin. Forget Robin. There is no chance.
Now I’ll go back to my original points.
1. There was always going to be a sequel.
Despite what I just said about the shakiness of hollywood contracts, the fact that everyone signed on for more than one film is just more proof that there was always going to be a sequel. (Hey, YOU guys are the ones harping on the contracts, not me.)
But let actions speak louder than contracts. Ask a comic book fanboy what a Batman story needs to have to be complete, and you’ll get Bruce, Alfred, Catwoman, Penguin, Riddler, Bane, Azrael, and a hundred other things. But ask my mother, a Chinese janitor, or a 15 year old girl from Ecuador, none of whom has EVER read a Batman comic and they’ll tell you it needs Batman, Alfred, COMMISSIONER Gordon, and the Joker. These are the bare minimums, these are the gold standards, and Batman Begins did not have them. What it did have, were iron clad lead-ins. Who wasn’t salivating when Batman and Gordon have their talk at the end of BB when Gordon mentions the new psycho leaving “calling cards?” I was, because I knew what it meant. The Joker. In part 2.
Now, look at Commissioner Gordon’s speech at the end of TDK. Batman has become what Batman is! A silent guardian. A watchful protector. A misunderstood hero. Nolan could very well leave it at that! No one assumes that Batman will stop fighting crime, but he has travelled into darkness and mystery. He has become the outlaw that Batman really is.
2. They’ll never top TDK.
How can they possibly do it? Has anyone EVER won an Oscar for being in a comic book movie? No. Never. Heath Ledger won an OSCAR. For playing THE JOKER. Before they saw the movie, did anyone in a BILLION YEARS think they would see someone win an Academy Award for a comic book movie? No!
How can they possibly raise the stakes any higher? The Joker turned the whole city upside down, and pushed our incorruptible hero to the breaking point. The city’s golden boy District Attorney (who locked up Gotham’s 500 worst gangsters in one swoop) actually does break! The Joker also blew up a hospital, and let us not forget the ferry gambit! Hundreds of people’s lives were at stake, and you believed it, because the Joker was a mad genius! It can’t be topped!
I’m sorry, watching Batman chase around a jewel thief just won’t do it. Catwoman is OUT. I don’t care how hot she is or how tightly her catsuit fits. Nolan knows this. He knows he has to heighten the stakes. What is he going to do? Bring in another “psycho madman” villain to hold the city to ransom? No, because he has already done that to PERFECTION.
I’ll freely admit that Nolan and Bale and Caine and Freeman all signed 3 film contracts. But none of them expected TDK to do as well as it did. Now Nolan is wondering if he can do better? If he should even try? He is an artist, and he sure doesn’t need the money, why soil his reputation making a third film that can’t possibly stand up to what he’s done so far? Everyone wants to go out on top, and Nolan can do that if he does it now. Contracts be damned.
3. Rachel Dawes is dead.
Not much to add here. She’s still dead. Nolan spent the first 2 films building the relationship between her and Bruce. If he were to introduce some new love interest just for the final film of a trilogy, it would be off balance, and Nolan is better than that. The brooding is far more likely.
4. Heath Ledger is dead.
Nolan would be CRUCIFIED if he were to recast the Joker after Heath’s incredible, final, OSCAR WINNING performance. Forget it. There is no way. It is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE.
5. They’ve used up all the worthy, but still believable villains.
Yes, Batman has 70 years’ worth of villains. The “Rogue’s Gallery” as everyone seem to like to call it. Batman might have stronger foes, and smarter, but none are more IMPORTANT than the Joker, and that door is closed. End of story.
Most of Batman’s villains will be ruled out because they have superpowers, or they won’t sell tickets. NOLAN ISN’T MAKING THIS FILM FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN NAME THE ENTIRE ROGUE’S GALLERY ALPHABETICALLY. He must stick with the core! The Riddler, or The Penguin. Both of whom would have to be done as psychos. And I don’t care how crazy they are, TDK did psycho to perfection. And how is he going to make the Riddler, or The Penguin crazier or more dangerous than the Joker? He can’t. He shouldn’t.
Face it guys, its over. With BB and TDK, Christopher Nolan has established himself as one of the greatest filmmakers in the world. A guy like that doesn’t do anything he doesn’t have to, and he knows that he only keeps that reputation if he goes out on top. And the only way for him to do that is to not screw up what got him there in the first place.
1. There was always going to be a sequel.
“Despite what I just said about the shakiness of hollywood contracts, the fact that everyone signed on for more than one film is just more proof that there was always going to be a sequel. (Hey, YOU guys are the ones harping on the contracts, not me.)”
The actors signed on for the sequel, but not Christopher Nolan (at least not right a way. It is different for directors; the chances of them returning are always iffy.Futhermore, Gordon speech in Begins was definitive to the Batman’s mythology. Telling him that his given hope to Gotham yet has unintentionally contributed to the escalation of crime. Gordon’s last words of Begins gave the groundwork for Batman’s entire mythology. The reference to the Joker was merely a nod to one of Batman most known villains nothing more.
2. They’ll never top TDK
“How can they possibly raise the stakes any higher? The Joker turned the whole city upside down, and pushed our incorruptible hero to the breaking point. The city’s golden boy District Attorney (who locked up Gotham’s 500 worst gangsters in one swoop) actually does break! The Joker also blew up a hospital, and let us not forgets the ferry gambit! Hundreds of people’s lives were at stake, and you believed it, because the Joker was a mad genius! It can’t be topped!”
Again it is difficult but not impossible. They manage to top Ra’s al Ghul who poisons the city with fear toxin that either killed them or drove them insane to the point of no return.
“I’m sorry, watching Batman chase around a jewel thief just won’t do it. Catwoman is OUT. I don’t care how hot she is or how tightly her catsuit fits. Nolan knows this. He knows he has to heighten the stakes. What is he going to do? Bring in another “psycho madman” villain to hold the city to ransom? No, because he has already done that to PERFECTION.”
If you read the comics Catwoman is more than just a jewel thief. In the comics she is also a vilgante and occasional bounty hunter. I don’t believe that Catwoman should be the primary villain of the next movie, but I do believe she should be the secondary villain. There were several villains in TDK the Joker, Sal Maroni, Two-Face; why can’t Catwoman be one of them. It wouldn’t be that hard that hard to bring her in to the films. They could treat her kind of the same way they treated Harvey Dent; they can give her an emotionally tragic arc. Also she doesn’t have to wear a skin tight cat suit. In the 1940 Detective comics she didn’t wear costume just fancy clothes. Nolan can just base his interpretation on her first appearances in the comics and use it as one of his inspirations. He did it with the Joker why not with Catwoman.
3. Rachel Dawes is dead.
“Not much to add here. She’s still dead. Nolan spent the first 2 films building the relationship between her and Bruce. If he were to introduce some new love interest just for the final film of a trilogy, it would be off balance, and Nolan is better than that. The brooding is far more likely.”
To be honest there was no or ever had been a relationship with Batman and Rachel just longing and wishful thinking. They can easily bring in another love interest. I’m not saying Batman shouldn’t brood or grieve over Rachel, but it would be interesting to see him at least try to move on. I think it would be very interesting for Batman to have endure a morbid love triangle, in which his trying to move on but is still hung up on his dead girlfriend.
4. Heath Ledger is dead.
“Nolan would be CRUCIFIED if he were to recast the Joker after Heath’s incredible, final, OSCAR WINNING performance. Forget it. There is no way. It is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE.”
I don’t believe there is any need to recast the Joker for many reasons. I believe it is too soon to see another interpretation of the Joker after Heath did it so well. Also there is really no need to have the Joker appear in the next film; they can mention the Joker, but there is no need to have him appear in person.
5. “They’ve used up all the worthy, but still believable villains.
Yes, Batman has 70 years’ worth of villains. The “Rogue’s Gallery” as everyone seem to like to call it. Batman might have stronger foes, and smarter, but none are more IMPORTANT than the Joker, and that door is closed. End of story”.
I believe your making the Joker overrated. His not the only iconic villain in the comics and other villain in the Batman universe that are just as important as the Joker. The Black Mask is a good example; he may not be as iconic, but one the most challenging.
“Most of Batman’s villains will be ruled out because they have superpowers, or they won’t sell tickets. NOLAN ISN’T MAKING THIS FILM FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN NAME THE ENTIRE ROGUE’S GALLERY ALPHABETICALLY. He must stick with the core! The Riddler or the Penguin. Both of whom would have to be done as psychos. And I don’t care how crazy they are, TDK did psycho to perfection. And how is he going to make the Riddler, or The Penguin crazier or more dangerous than the Joker? He can’t. He shouldn’t.”
Actually, he can if can give Nolan a chance. The Riddler and The Penguin are good choices, but they are not the only choices Nolan can choose. There’s the Black Mask, Hush, The Mad Hatter and list goes on. Furthermore, if Nolan was to choose the Riddler then he would probably do something new and different with him that hadn’t been done in the comics. Look at his interpretation of the Joker and Two-Face. He made the Joker more psychotic and realistic. He also made Two-Face more tragic and believable. Nolan has proved that he can take iconic villains and make them more interesting; there is no reason why he can’t do it again.
Rather Nolan decides to return or not; it is not the end of the franchise. There are probably a million directors wanting to direct a Batman film. Joss Whedon, Josh Olson, and Zack Snyder have all expressed interest in directing, writing (or both) a Batman film. I’m sorry to disagree with you, but the franchise is far from over.
Hello
First Usually i dont write in english, so pleese, dont be harsh with me.
I think the Batman franchise is not over. Why?
1. I’m very sad when I knew the death of Heath Ledger, He was the best and I think it will be a big mistake is they want to put antother actor for Joker. I beleave the joker is death with Ledger.
But we have other Vilains. And for me the only one who can make a feature film like the Dark Knight is Johny Depp. Yeah i’m a huge fan of his work. All Character who he play is unique, special and fabulous. If he play the Riddler and if he play it like he want. We can have a wonderfull Riddler. He can make a miracle with everyting.
My dream Cast Krew
RiDDler: Johny Depp
Poison Womam: Angelina Jolie
Clown Woman: Helena Boham Carter
Joker: Voice off like the voice of Heath Ledger
Double face: Same of Dark knight
Just with that and a great scenario it will be nice
Hmmm. These things are getting pretty long. I appreciate you taking the time, Jim.
As far as the franchise being over, you are taking the easy road. OF COURSE Warner Brothers is going to make more Batman movies. OF COURSE they are. They just made a half BILLION dollars with TDK. They could choose any director in the world, who makes the worst movie ever, they will still make all their money back opening weekend. That is NOT in dispute. I totally agree that we have not seen the last Batman movie. What I’m saying is, that the Christopher Nolan franchise, the one we all like right now, is finished.
You say the actors signed on for the sequels, but Nolan was reluctant. Everything I read online says that Nolan isn’t anywhere near committed to a 3rd film, let alone having a story for one. That’s just more proof to back me up.
Going back to our points:
1. The Sequel.
Gordon’s talk with Batman at the end of BB does NOT establish anything. All throughout the movie, Bruce and Alfred discuss the consequences of Batman’s war on crime and how it will get worse, before it gets better. (That whole scene at the end of BB sets up the sequel, and more importantly, the Joker. That conversation alone GUARANTEED that the sequel’s opening night would be completely sold out.) Batman was still new on the scene. As far as the citizens of Gotham knew, he would disappear as quickly as he had appeared. It’s not until the beginning of TDK when time has passed, that Gotham’s underworld are afraid, and the citizens have hope in the future. Then, at the end of TDK, THAT speech by Gordon sums it all up. Only then has Batman has become the shadowy outlaw that he has always been.
2. Topping TDK.
Jim, I’m unconvinced. The fear toxin scheme in BB was clever. And Ra’s Al Ghul’s motivations were clever, but it was topped easily by the Joker’s maniacal exploits because all of Gotham watched them happen. The Joker shows up on television and murders people, judges, a police commissioner, and cops by the bushel! He almost murders hundreds of people in the hospital, and on the ferries! He had the whole city in a panic. Ra’s scheme was treacherous, but nowhere near the havoc the Joker created! That’s what I mean by heightening the stakes.
My question remains, what can the Riddler (or ANY other Rogue’s Gallery villain, for that matter) do to be a greater challenge?
I think we both agree that Catwoman would not deserve a movie of her own. I don’t think she would even get a Harvey Dent style tragic arc because we’ve already seen that in TDK. Nolan’s not going to repeat that. At most, she would be a brief cameo. And if she was in it, it would be in her catsuit. No one has cared about 1940’s high class, fur coat wearing Catwoman since the 1940’s. In BB, the League of Shadows had their swords and ninja suits. Joker wore his purple suit, and Two-Face had his half clean, half burned suit. Ordinary criminals like Sal Moroni have no place in the Batman world except as cogs that keep the machine going until the next big villain appears. We expect more from our Batman villains, and Nolan knows this.
3. Rachel Dawes.
You could not be more wrong about her and Bruce. Their relationship was very carefully constructed. They both express their feelings toward each other at the end of BB. Its obvious that they both love each other very much, but there is too much in the way. We see Bruce with countless supermodels and ballerinas, but when he sees her, the playboy attitude is GONE. And in TDK, when it looks like Harvey Dent will take over as the city’s protector, Bruce asks Rachel to leave with him, because he has wanted her all along. And she almost does! We haven’t even seen the effect that Rachel’s death has had on Bruce. They weren’t just a fling, they are a major theme running throughout this story.
4. Heath Ledger.
I think we both agree on this one as well. The Joker ship has sailed, and with it, the ability to properly explore the aftermath of all he’s done. Themes I think Nolan would have relied on to do a third film.
5. The Rogue’s Gallery.
Let me present this one another way. You’re Christopher Nolan. With BB, you’ve made arguably the best “Super Hero” movie EVER made. A movie NOT JUST FOR COMIC BOOK FANS, but loved by all movie goers. Then, you bring out your biggest guns and make TDK, which is definitely the “best Super Hero” movie ever made! And the highest grossing! And the most Oscar winning! And again, NOT JUST FOR COMIC BOOK FANS, but all moviegoers! What do you do now? Where do you go? Who do you introduce? You’re going to go with Black Mask? Or Hush? Or The Mad Hatter?
I don’t think so.
NO ONE will care about those villains. NO ONE. If you hope to make a movie even half as good as TDK you know you’re gonna need some serious villain clout. But none of them, not even the Riddler or the Penguin, Batman’s two biggest remaining villains can measure up! What do you do? You go out on a high note, that’s what, and that’s what Nolan will do.
How many movie trilogies can you name? Now, how many movie trilogies can you name where the 3rd movie was the best one? Any? Trilogies never end on the highest note, Nolan knows that he’s blown his wad, and he also knows that he as made two of the greatest Super Hero movies ever. he has nothing else to prove. He is not going to make #3 for the money. He will make it if he thinks it will be awesome, and judging by his hesitancy to jump on board, he knows he’ll fall short.
You say there is no reason that Nolan can’t turn the Riddler into something we haven’t seen before. I agree totally. But the problem remains, and I know I sound like a broken record, what can he turn the Riddler into that will be more menacing than the Joker!? The Joker was uncompromising. The Joker didn’t want money. The Joker didn’t want fame. He wanted CHAOS! He couldn’t be bought, or controlled. Nolan can’t do that with the Riddler because he’s already done that with the Joker.
Jim, forget everything else. This debate comes down to just one thing. IT IS ALL ABOUT HEIGHTENING THE STAKES. I’m sure Nolan could give the Riddler a pretty nifty death trap, which is the Riddler’s thing, but after what Batman just went through with the Joker, that would be like swatting flies after you just slayed a dragon.
The bottom line is, nothing Nolan does will top TDK, and he will NOT want to be the guy who ruined a good thing. He will make the decision as an artist, and as a storyteller, and he will walk away from this.
I agreed with you Shoes on many points but i have to disagree with Nolen not making a 3rd movie. I believe it was you that said “Nolen is an artist” and if this is true, i believe that there will be a way that he will push himself to be better that TDK. I can see how u think its over with TDK due to how well The Joker was protrayed but i think it has a lot to do with the untimely death of Ledger. Everyone liked Heath, everyone saw the movie because it was, supposidly, Heath’s last movie. A lot of people saw it for that reason, not just Batman comic lovers. I think what won Heath those awards and what made TDK so huge was due to the fact that Ledger had died. Dont get me wrong, he played the best Joker topping Jack Nicholson but I hate to say it, but i believe that had a lot to do with it. To me, i think Nolen could make the Riddler more twisted, dark and crazy. As the Joker? I dont know, its possible to make the Riddler that chaotic. As much money Nolen has made from TDK and his resources that he could get his hands, its very possibly to create a villian worth making a movie about. Granted, I DO AGREE that Catwoman wont be worth a full movie or even a cameo.
This is my point exactly, Andy. Christopher Nolan IS an artist. And artists don’t make decisions based on money. Warner Brothers will probably give him any budget he asks for, because they know they’ll make it back. But no amount of money in the world is going to make a better Batman movie than TDK when you consider what Nolan has left to work with! The Joker is gone, and I’ll admit, that the Riddler is his next best option. But that just won’t be good enough.
The Riddler’s character is not as dark, twisted, or even remotely as crazy as the Joker is. If so, HE WOULDN’T BE THE RIDDLER! Just another version of the Joker. And Nolan can’t do that. Not twice. People would walk out of the theater saying, “That wasn’t the Riddler, it was the Joker all over again.”
The Riddler is a character of great intelligence and refinement. He thrives on crafting brilliant schemes that require control and restraint that the Joker just doesn’t care about. The Riddler can’t go around blowing things up and murdering people on a whim like the Joker. The Riddler’s whole thing is his skill for solving, and more importantly, creating intricate puzzles for his enemies to solve.
To stay true to the character of the Riddler, Nolan would have to make him less dangerous than the Joker. And we want more from the next film, not less.
“As far as the franchise being over, you are taking the easy road. OF COURSE Warner Brothers is going to make more Batman movies. OF COURSE they are. They just made a half BILLION dollars with TDK. They could choose any director in the world, who makes the worst movie ever, they will still make all their money back opening weekend. That is NOT in dispute. I totally agree that we have not seen the last Batman movie. What I’m saying is, that the Christopher Nolan franchise, the one we all like right now, is finished.”
The reason I mentioned Joss Whedon, Josh Olson, and Zack Snyder is because you implied that the franchise would go downhill if Nolan leaves. You made reference to Joel Schumacher taking over the franchise after Burton. My point is that there are plenty of talent directors that are willing to take over the franchise. Plus I believe that Warner Brothers have learned their lesson with Schumacher. If they decide to do a sequel without Nolan then they would probably choose a talented and first rate director to take the job. I’m not saying it would be Whedon, Olson, or Snyder, but someone closer to Nolan’s style.
1. The Sequel.
“Gordon’s talk with Batman at the end of BB does NOT establish anything. All throughout the movie, Bruce and Alfred discuss the consequences of Batman’s war on crime and how it will get worse, before it gets better. (That whole scene at the end of BB sets up the sequel, and more importantly, the Joker. That conversation alone GUARANTEED that the sequel’s opening night would be completely sold out.) Batman was still new on the scene. As far as the citizens of Gotham knew, he would disappear as quickly as he had appeared. It’s not until the beginning of TDK when time has passed, that Gotham’s underworld are afraid, and the citizens have hope in the future. Then, at the end of TDK, THAT speech by Gordon sums it all up. Only then has Batman has become the shadowy outlaw that he has always been.”
I’m sorry to disagree, but Gordon talk of escalation establishes Batman entire mythology. Batman’s mythology has based on the idea of him attracting chaos to Gotham. Batman the Long Halloween, The Dark Knight Returns, and episode of Batman: The Animated Series have defined the idea that Batman attracts the very chaos he fights against. That fact alone complete defines his mythology and why Batman is a never-ending story. Nolan’s films are not like Star Wars or The Lord of the Rings, because both BB and TDK are complete stories that stand on their own. Gordon’s speech in TDK was definitive, but that doesn’t mean that there is not another story to tell. Batman has been fugitive before in the comics. He was a fugitive in Gotham Central, Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, The Dark Knight Returns so it is not the end of Nolan’s franchise there is still plenty of stories to tell.
2. Topping TDK.
“Jim, I’m unconvinced. The fear toxin scheme in BB was clever. And Ra’s Al Ghul’s motivations were clever, but it was topped easily by the Joker’s maniacal exploits because all of Gotham watched them happen. The Joker shows up on television and murders people, judges, a police commissioner, and cops by the bushel! He almost murders hundreds of people in the hospital, and on the ferries! He had the whole city in a panic. Ra’s scheme was treacherous, but nowhere near the havoc the Joker created! That’s what I mean by heightening the stakes.”
Okay, Ra’s al Ghul probably ended up killing more people then the Joker and he even did worse than kill them, but drove them insane to the point of no return. The Joker manages to top this, but it certainly wasn’t easy when you look at the facts. The Joker almost killed the people on the ferries, but was obviously stopped by Batman. Ra’s al Ghul succeeded part of his plan to destroy Gotham, but not the divine Armageddon that he was hoping.
“I think we both agree that Catwoman would not deserve a movie of her own. I don’t think she would even get a Harvey Dent style tragic arc because we’ve already seen that in TDK. Nolan’s not going to repeat that. At most, she would be a brief cameo. And if she was in it, it would be in her cat suit. No one has cared about 1940’s high class, fur coat wearing Catwoman since the 1940’s. In BB, the League of Shadows had their swords and ninja suits. Joker wore his purple suit, and Two-Face had his half clean, half burned suit. Ordinary criminals like Sal Moroni have no place in the Batman world except as cogs that keep the machine going until the next big villain appears. We expect more from our Batman villains, and Nolan knows this.”
I personally prefer Catwoman to appear in Nolan’s Batman films then to have her own movie. I think she should appear in Batman film, before they give her own movie. Furthermore, giving Catwoman a tragic arc would not be the same as Harvey Dent, because they are both completely different characters. It would not be a repeat of Dent’s arc. It would only be a repeat if Nolan made Catwoman a district attorney trying clean up Gotham, and then have half of her face burned off. Batman is about tragedy and his tragedy is not limited to one person. I highly doubt Nolan would say “oh we already given Harvey Dent a tragic arc; no one else can have a tragic arc.” Furthermore, I believe that Catwoman from the 1940’s is a great inspiration for Nolan, but not the only inspiration. I believe that Nolan can make an updated version of the golden age Catwoman. I believe that the fans have to remember that Nolan is about realism and Catwoman first appearance in the comics in the comics is the most realistic. Nolan based his interpretation of the Joker on his first appearance in the comics why can’t he do the same with Catwoman. The last reason why I believe that Catwoman would great addition is because she is a femme fatale. Nolan is an expert in film noir and both of his Batman films have noirish appeal. Neither film had a femme fatale and femme fatale is one the most important attributes of film noir.
3. Rachel Dawes.
“You could not be more wrong about her and Bruce. Their relationship was very carefully constructed. They both express their feelings toward each other at the end of BB. It’s obvious that they both love each other very much, but there is too much in the way. We see Bruce with countless supermodels and ballerinas, but when he sees her, the playboy attitude is GONE. And in TDK, when it looks like Harvey Dent will take over as the city’s protector, Bruce asks Rachel to leave with him, because he has wanted her all along. And she almost does! We haven’t even seen the effect that Rachel’s death has had on Bruce. They weren’t just a fling, they are a major theme running throughout this story.”
I’m sorry, but Bruce and Rachel never had a relationship. In the end of Batman Begins Rachel tells Bruce that they can’t have a romantic relationship until Bruce is no longer Batman. She also says that the man that she loved was gone and was replaced with man who became. Rachel seems to admire Bruce for becoming Batman, but is not in love with because of it. She instead falls for Harvey Dent who is more virtuous and nobler then Batman. Bruce and Rachel never had a chance to have a relationship. Furthermore, we saw that Bruce was devastated by her death during the scene when his alone sitting in penthouse holding and looking down at his mask while still wearing his Batman’s armor. In the next film I would like to see Bruce engage in a romance, but tormented romance.
4. Heath Ledger.
“I think we both agree on this one as well. The Joker ship has sailed, and with it, the ability to properly explore the aftermath of all he’s done. Themes I think Nolan would have relied on to do a third film.”
I believe we only partly agree. I believe if Ledger lived he may had given him a cameo appearance, but for the most part I believe he would had move on from the events of the last film to something different. Nolan didn’t really explore the aftermath of Ra’s al Ghul in the TDK why would explore the aftermath of the Joker in the next film.
5. The Rogue’s Gallery.
“Let me present this one another way. You’re Christopher Nolan. With BB, you’ve made arguably the best “Super Hero” movie EVER made. A movie NOT JUST FOR COMIC BOOK FANS, but loved by all movie goers. Then, you bring out your biggest guns and make TDK, which is definitely the “best Super Hero” movie ever made! And the highest grossing! And the most Oscar winning! And again, NOT JUST FOR COMIC BOOK FANS, but all moviegoers! What do you do now? Where do you go? Who do you introduce? You’re going to go with Black Mask? Or Hush? Or The Mad Hatter?”
I think it is time to be a little more honest. The movie itself didn’t win an Oscar and it wasn’t even nominated. The nominations for the movie were technical achievements and it was Heath Ledger and Richard King that won the Oscar. If Nolan returns it could be a good chance that the next Batman film could be nominated for Best Picture. Furthermore, The Dark Knight was best superhero movie so far. Only time will tell rather another superhero can top the Dark Knight. I believe that the TDK is one of the best superheroes, but I don’t believe TDK is the best superhero movie that ever will exist to say that only limits the possibilities for the Batman franchise. Also I don’t see the harm of bringing in Black Mask or Hush. Ra’s al Ghul wasn’t the most iconic character, but they brought him in the film why not Black Mask, or Hush.
“NO ONE will care about those villains. NO ONE. If you hope to make a movie even half as good as TDK you know you’re gonna need some serious villain clout. But none of them, not even the Riddler or the Penguin, Batman’s two biggest remaining villains can measure up! What do you do? You go out on a high note, that’s what, and that’s what Nolan will do.”
I believe that a lot of fans would disagree with you that no one will care that their bringing the Black Mask to the Nolan franchise. Furthermore, the Riddler is a more likely chooses then the Penguin, because as I said Nolan is disinterested in the Penguin. I believe that Nolan can find a villain who ever they may be to top the Joker, because it may be difficult but not impossible.
I believe that Nolan can raise the stakes in the next Batman movie. It would probably take a lot work, brainstorming, and creative risks, but it can be done. A few year ago a lot people were saying the same thing you were saying. They were even hoping that Nolan wouldn’t do an sequel, but Nolan prove them wrong and I believe that is able to do it again.
“As far as the franchise being over, you are taking the easy road. OF COURSE Warner Brothers is going to make more Batman movies. OF COURSE they are. They just made a half BILLION dollars with TDK. They could choose any director in the world, who makes the worst movie ever, they will still make all their money back opening weekend. That is NOT in dispute. I totally agree that we have not seen the last Batman movie. What I’m saying is, that the Christopher Nolan franchise, the one we all like right now, is finished.”
The reason I mentioned Joss Whedon, Josh Olson, and Zack Snyder is because you implied that the franchise would go downhill if Nolan leaves. You made reference to Joel Schumacher taking over the franchise after Burton. My point is that there are plenty of talent directors that are willing to take over the franchise. Plus I believe that Warner Brothers have learned their lesson with Schumacher. If they decide to do a sequel without Nolan then they would probably choose a talented and first rate director to take the job. I’m not saying it would be Whedon, Olson, or Snyder, but someone closer to Nolan’s style.
1. The Sequel.
“Gordon’s talk with Batman at the end of BB does NOT establish anything. All throughout the movie, Bruce and Alfred discuss the consequences of Batman’s war on crime and how it will get worse, before it gets better. (That whole scene at the end of BB sets up the sequel, and more importantly, the Joker. That conversation alone GUARANTEED that the sequel’s opening night would be completely sold out.) Batman was still new on the scene. As far as the citizens of Gotham knew, he would disappear as quickly as he had appeared. It’s not until the beginning of TDK when time has passed, that Gotham’s underworld are afraid, and the citizens have hope in the future. Then, at the end of TDK, THAT speech by Gordon sums it all up. Only then has Batman has become the shadowy outlaw that he has always been.”
I’m sorry to disagree, but Gordon talk of escalation establishes Batman entire mythology. Batman’s mythology has based on the idea of him attracting chaos to Gotham. Batman the Long Halloween, The Dark Knight Returns, and episode of Batman: The Animated Series have defined the idea that Batman attracts the very chaos he fights against. That fact alone complete defines his mythology and why Batman is a never-ending story. Nolan’s films are not like Star Wars or The Lord of the Rings, because both BB and TDK are complete stories that stand on their own. Gordon’s speech in TDK was definitive, but that doesn’t mean that there is not another story to tell. Batman has been fugitive before in the comics. He was a fugitive in Gotham Central, Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, The Dark Knight Returns so it is not the end of Nolan’s franchise there is still plenty of stories to tell.
2. Topping TDK.
“Jim, I’m unconvinced. The fear toxin scheme in BB was clever. And Ra’s Al Ghul’s motivations were clever, but it was topped easily by the Joker’s maniacal exploits because all of Gotham watched them happen. The Joker shows up on television and murders people, judges, a police commissioner, and cops by the bushel! He almost murders hundreds of people in the hospital, and on the ferries! He had the whole city in a panic. Ra’s scheme was treacherous, but nowhere near the havoc the Joker created! That’s what I mean by heightening the stakes.”
Okay, Ra’s al Ghul probably ended up killing more people then the Joker and he even did worse than kill them, but drove them insane to the point of no return. The Joker manages to top this, but it certainly wasn’t easy when you look at the facts. The Joker almost killed the people on the ferries, but was obviously stopped by Batman. Ra’s al Ghul succeeded part of his plan to destroy Gotham, but not the divine Armageddon that he was hoping.
“I think we both agree that Catwoman would not deserve a movie of her own. I don’t think she would even get a Harvey Dent style tragic arc because we’ve already seen that in TDK. Nolan’s not going to repeat that. At most, she would be a brief cameo. And if she was in it, it would be in her cat suit. No one has cared about 1940’s high class, fur coat wearing Catwoman since the 1940’s. In BB, the League of Shadows had their swords and ninja suits. Joker wore his purple suit, and Two-Face had his half clean, half burned suit. Ordinary criminals like Sal Moroni have no place in the Batman world except as cogs that keep the machine going until the next big villain appears. We expect more from our Batman villains, and Nolan knows this.”
I personally prefer Catwoman to appear in Nolan’s Batman films then to have her own movie. I think she should appear in Batman film, before they give her own movie. Furthermore, giving Catwoman a tragic arc would not be the same as Harvey Dent, because they are both completely different characters. It would not be a repeat of Dent’s arc. It would only be a repeat if Nolan made Catwoman a district attorney trying clean up Gotham, and then have half of her face burned off. Batman is about tragedy and his tragedy is not limited to one person. I highly doubt Nolan would say “oh we already given Harvey Dent a tragic arc; no one else can have a tragic arc.” Furthermore, I believe that Catwoman from the 1940’s is a great inspiration for Nolan, but not the only inspiration. I believe that Nolan can make an updated version of the golden age Catwoman. I believe that the fans have to remember that Nolan is about realism and Catwoman first appearance in the comics in the comics is the most realistic. Nolan based his interpretation of the Joker on his first appearance in the comics why can’t he do the same with Catwoman. The last reason why I believe that Catwoman would great addition is because she is a femme fatale. Nolan is an expert in film noir and both of his Batman films have noirish appeal. Neither film had a femme fatale and femme fatale is one the most important attributes of film noir.
3. Rachel Dawes.
“You could not be more wrong about her and Bruce. Their relationship was very carefully constructed. They both express their feelings toward each other at the end of BB. It’s obvious that they both love each other very much, but there is too much in the way. We see Bruce with countless supermodels and ballerinas, but when he sees her, the playboy attitude is GONE. And in TDK, when it looks like Harvey Dent will take over as the city’s protector, Bruce asks Rachel to leave with him, because he has wanted her all along. And she almost does! We haven’t even seen the effect that Rachel’s death has had on Bruce. They weren’t just a fling, they are a major theme running throughout this story.”
I’m sorry, but Bruce and Rachel never had a relationship. In the end of Batman Begins Rachel tells Bruce that they can’t have a romantic relationship until Bruce is no longer Batman. She also says that the man that she loved was gone and was replaced with man who became Batman. Rachel seems to admire Bruce for becoming Batman, but is not in love with because of it. She instead falls for Harvey Dent who is more virtuous and nobler then Batman. Bruce and Rachel never had a chance to have a relationship. Furthermore, we saw that Bruce was devastated by her death during the scene when his alone sitting in penthouse holding and looking down at his mask while still wearing his Batman’s armor. In the next film I would like to see Bruce engage in a romance, but tormented romance.
4. Heath Ledger.
“I think we both agree on this one as well. The Joker ship has sailed, and with it, the ability to properly explore the aftermath of all he’s done. Themes I think Nolan would have relied on to do a third film.”
I believe we only partly agree. I believe if Ledger lived he may had given him a cameo appearance, but for the most part I believe he would had move on from the events of the last film to something different. Nolan didn’t really explore the aftermath of Ra’s al Ghul in the TDK why would explore the aftermath of the Joker in the next film.
5. The Rogue’s Gallery.
“Let me present this one another way. You’re Christopher Nolan. With BB, you’ve made arguably the best “Super Hero” movie EVER made. A movie NOT JUST FOR COMIC BOOK FANS, but loved by all movie goers. Then, you bring out your biggest guns and make TDK, which is definitely the “best Super Hero” movie ever made! And the highest grossing! And the most Oscar winning! And again, NOT JUST FOR COMIC BOOK FANS, but all moviegoers! What do you do now? Where do you go? Who do you introduce? You’re going to go with Black Mask? Or Hush? Or The Mad Hatter?”
I think it is time to be a little more honest. The movie itself didn’t win an Oscar and it wasn’t even nominated. The nominations for the movie were technical achievements and it was Heath Ledger and Richard King that won the Oscar. If Nolan returns it could be a good chance that the next Batman film could be nominated for Best Picture. Furthermore, The Dark Knight was best superhero movie so far. Only time will tell rather another superhero can top the Dark Knight. I do believe that the TDK is one of the best superheroes, but I don’t believe TDK is the best superhero movie that ever will exist to say that only limits the possibilities for the Batman franchise. Also I don’t see the harm of bringing in Black Mask or Hush. Ra’s al Ghul wasn’t the most iconic character, but they brought him in the film why not Black Mask, or Hush.
“NO ONE will care about those villains. NO ONE. If you hope to make a movie even half as good as TDK you know you’re gonna need some serious villain clout. But none of them, not even the Riddler or the Penguin, Batman’s two biggest remaining villains can measure up! What do you do? You go out on a high note, that’s what, and that’s what Nolan will do.”
I believe that a lot of fans would disagree with you that no one will care that their bringing the Black Mask to the Nolan franchise. Furthermore, the Riddler is a more likely chooses then the Penguin, because as I said Nolan is disinterested in the Penguin. I believe that Nolan can find a villain who ever they may be to top the Joker, because it may be difficult but not impossible.
I believe that Nolan can raise the stakes in the next Batman movie. It would probably take a lot work, brainstorming, and creative risks, but it can be done. A few year ago a lot people were saying the same thing you were saying. They were even hoping that Nolan wouldn’t do an sequel, but Nolan prove them wrong and I believe that is able to do it again.
I’ve got you on the ropes, Jim! I’m hearing a lot of “this COULD happen,” and “that COULD happen.” “It MIGHT be this,” or “it MIGHT be that.” Hopes and dreams don’t pay the rent, man. Nolan MIGHT come back for a third. He MIGHT also make it about Batman in Space! There are a billion mathematical possibilities. So saying that something MIGHT or COULD happen isn’t going to win a debate.
My WHOLE POINT is that Nolan is leaving. So if he is replaced by ANYONE, then I’m right.
WB WILL make more Batman movies. That is a GUARANTEE. But this “franchise,” the “Nolan franchise” is over.
1. The Sequel.
Nolan WAS able to heighten the stakes after BB, but I’ve said from the beginning that BB was destined to have a sequel. In TDK, Ra’s al Ghul is not even mentioned, and the Scarecrow is proven to be a joke whom Batman can easily defeat. Harvey Dent locks up most of the gangsters in the city. Batman defeats the Joker and Two Face, AND he and Gordon manage to save Dent’s reputation, which, according to the Mayor, is what will keep all those gangsters in jail.
How can Nolan escalate beyond that, WITHOUT REPEATING HIMSELF?
I didn’t mean that Catwoman should get her own movie, I meant that she should not get her own Batman movie. She should not be the only villain. I think we both agree on that.
What exactly, has Nolan done in BB or TDK to make you think that he is somehow “inspired” by 1940’s Catwoman?
Batman wears a costume. The Joker wore a costume, as did Two Face, and the Scarecrow. IF Nolan brought in Catwoman, she’s going to have a costume because no one but you cares about 1940’s Catwoman. THESE MOVIES ARE NOT JUST FOR COMIC BOOK FANS, but regular people. If regular people see “1940’s” Catwoman, all of them will ask, “Who the hell is that? That’s not Catwoman! CATWOMAN WEARS A COSTUME!”
And Nolan is NOT going to bring her in JUST BECAUSE she’s a “femme fatale.” He has bigger things to worry about than a film noir checklist. You are reaching, Jim. I smell desperation.
3. Rachel Dawes.
ARE YOU SERIOUS?! You don’t think that Bruce was “tormented” by the situation with Rachel? You are forgetting that in TDK, she tells Bruce that she meant it when she said that she would be with him if Gotham no longer needed Batman. Only AFTER THAT, she sends him a note (the one Alfred never delivers) to tell him that she changed her mind!
He loved her, he believed that she loved him, and she DIED while he tried to save her. How much more torment do you need? A man who goes through that doesn’t just jump into something with another woman! The love angle is CLOSED.
4. Heath Ledger.
We will never know. What we DO know is that Nolan does not have the Joker anymore. One less thing that he has, and one more reason why he’ll leave the series.
Dead or alive, Heath Ledger DESERVED that Oscar. The Academy has too much integrity to give an acting award to someone who didn’t deserve it for their acting achievements. Shame on you for even saying so.
5. The Villains.
Okay, this is the final word I’m going to say on the “Rogue’s Gallery.” You are probably a much bigger Batman comic book fan than I am. I’ve read plenty of comics in my life, and loved Batman: The Animated Series…
…but I have NEVER HEARD of the Black Mask. And if I haven’t heard of him, then your typical movie goer has DEFINITELY never heard of him, and WILL NOT CARE about him! Just like we don’t care about 1940’s Catwoman, Hush, Bane, or any other obscure “fans only” favorite.
I’ve gotcha. For the same reasons I started with…
2. Half a billion dollars? An Oscar? Nolan CANNOT top TDK!
3. The love interest is dead!
4. He can’t bring back the Joker!
5. His next best option, The Riddler, won’t make a better movie!
All this says just one thing, man. Nolan is out!